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Holy
Cow!
The
Canadian Jasen Files have caused an uproar! Here is a
bunch of responses from people regarding this page of hate mail.
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This is in response
to the newest update to your Canadian Jasen files. He writes:
"....people
thought that the world was the center of the universe. This
theory was called the geocentric theory, then a man, I can't
think of his name right now, discovered that the earth was
not the center of the universe, but that instead, the sun
is the center of the universe, this is known as the heliocentric
theory."
He fails to mention
that the geocentric therory was actually supported by the
church and when Galileo (I think thats how you spell it) published
his book on the heliocentric theory, he was condemned by the
church. Also the heliocentric theory, does not mean the Sun
is the centre of the universe it means the EARTH revolves
around the Sun as do the other planets.
He also wrote:
"according
to you, my children will be better off because I lifted weights.
So maybe you should start lifting too, so that our species
can be made better because the our generation lifted weights,
so we gave birth to stronger children."
Here he describes
Lamarckian evolution by transmission of acquired characteristics.
Not Darwinian evolution. No wonder he doesn't believe in evolution,
he was taught it all wrong.
Finally when he
says there is no evidence to link man to apes, he conveniently
ignores fossile evidence of primates all the way from aegyptopithecus
to australopithecus to cro magnon. If this is how x-ian science
works, I'm glad there is some of the other kind of science
to make life work.
Kartik Rajan
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Hey Bob,
I read the letters
from jasen and he stated that in the good ol "dark ages"there
was a man who claimed the universe was heliopcentric, while
the church mainly and because of that the world believed it
was geocentric, well there were 2 men who said this copernicus
and Galileo Galilei , the later invited the scientists from
the church to look through his telescope and to see he was
right, they did not so, started bickering and decided he was
a heretic, the catholic church did not say he was right until
the 20th cenntury, a few centuries later since the man's death,
so i was thinking how can mr jasen use this as an argument
especially when he doesn't know his name, cause this whole
example is anti-church, it cleary lets us see that the churh
wanted everybody to believe the universe was geocentric and
kept it at that, not interested in the truth, so mr jasen,
it's the same with the world is flat example, this idea stemmed
from the early times of mankind and was not rejected until
a long time later, cause the church made sure that the idea
of the flatness of the world was the one truth,
ps i am student
history and a big fan, greetings
Tom Ottenheym
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Hey Bob,
I still check in
on the site every once and awhile to see what's new, and I
love the athiest pamphlets. I'm just shocked you didn't think
of it sooner.
I also read that
you were feeling lonely (love diaries?), which I'm feelin'
too because I just recently moved to downtown Toronto and
I'm not diggin' it as much as I thought I would. I end up
driving an hour back to the hometown on the weekends to see
familiar faces. And I've been single for almost 2 years and
that's probably what you meant when you said lonely anyway.
Regardless, what
spurred me to actually write in was this Jasen fellow. I'm
sick of weak Canadians! They're the ones that cause a buzz,
most Canadians are wicked...but they're all at the bar chillin
with a pint, minding their own damn business. So it's all
the other ones that give us a bad name! If you're Canadian
and you say dumb shit, write bad songs or produce TV shows/movies
of a Mentos-like caliber, do EVERYONE a favour and stay the
fuck home. Thanks for comin out. I'm tired of "Canadian" being
used as an automatic designation of geekdom, us proudly waving
the maple leaf representing a nation of people seemingly unknown
to the fact that we may be viewed as mildly autistic. It's
sad! Jasen, shut up!
Sara
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| “I'm
sorry that I can't write more, but I have to go get ready
for football practice now” |
Subject: dinosaurs
in job
Dear Bob,
Hi, its Jasen from Union Square, the kid that you talked to
for about an hour and 15 minutes. Here are the verses from
Job that talk about a dinosaur living during the same time
that men were living. There is also like a little description
kinda thing about the verses and the website
from which the description came. I'm sorry that
I can't write more, but I have to go get ready for football
practice now, but if u write back, there is more verses that
I can give u that talk about dragons if u want them.
Job
40:15-24
15 Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which
feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles
of his belly!
17 His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are
close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can
approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals
play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds
in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by
the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure,
though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce
his nose?
40:15-24
Behold Now Behemoth
There is a load to learn from this, but I want us to first
keep the context in mind. God is pointing to an amazingly
powerful creature and saying, "Job, look at this thing's strength,
which is so far above yours. Can you even catch him? I am
his Creator." God is using this creature to show Job that
he isn't strong enough to stand up to the creature, much less
His Creator.
What
Is Behemoth?
Now, this is where we stop and begin to investigate what this
creature is. The Hebrew word "Be-hay-MOHTH" is the plural
of "be-hay-MAW," which means "beast." But although plural,
it is used in a singular form. This is lingusitically called
an intensive or majestic plural, making it a beast which is
grandiose, huge, and awe-inspiring.
A
Hippo?
Many commentaries say that the Behemoth is a hippopotamus.
One early commentator (Jablonski), even made up a non-existant
Egyptian word ("p-ehe-mu") which supposedly means "water-ox"
to justify that position. But as we read the description God
gives Behemoth, it is clear this is no hippopotamus. Look
at verse 17: Job 40:17 ³He bends his tail like a cedar..."
The hippopotamus' tail is hardly a cedar tree. It's more like
a twig! Then, verse 24 says that he is not able to be captured.
This clearly does not apply to the hippopotamus, who today
can be seen in zoos all around the world.
A
Dinosaur?
I believe the clearest clue as to the beast's identity is
found when we read in verse 19, Job 40:19 ³He is the first
of the ways of God"
The word "first" here is the Hebrew word "ray-SHEETH." This
comes from "roshe," which means, "head, top, summit, upper
part, chief, total, sum, or height." A better translation
might be, "He is the tallest beast God ever made." What is
the tallest creature God ever made? While some might say the
Brontosaurus at 25 feet tall, he's not even close. Brachiosaurus
was 40 feet tall. But at this point in our discoveries, the
largest creature thought ever to walk the earth was Sauroposeidon,
whose fossils were found in Southeastern Oklahoma in 1994.
Scientists estimate that Sauroposeidon had a 40-foot long
neck, was 98 feet long, weighed about 60 or 70 tons, and stood
60 feet tall! Whichever dinosaur the largest beast turns out
to be, could this be what Behemoth is - a dinosaur?
Certainly all of the details given in Job seem to fit. An
herbivore (40:15), with strength focused in the abdominal
area (40:16), a tree-like tail (40:17), huge bones that are
strong as metal (40:18), and able to stand in the midst of
a rushing river and not be moved (40:23-24).
Jasen
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First of all, right
out of the gate, I have to tell you that the concept of human
beings (like you and me) having once lived along side the
dinosaur is still complete and unbridled madness in my book.
It's a theory no respectable historian, scientist or archeologist
would even consider, laughing off the suggestion with something
along the lines of: "What? Did some 15 year old come up with
that one?"
It's a non issue, easily wiped from the chalkboard when you
take into account the timeline necessary for a species to
populate the world then become extinct.
With that said
and my bias laid out on the table I must tell you these passages
in Job present as much evidence for the theory as they do
against it. Let me show you what I mean.
This 98 foot tall
creature also seems to hide amongst the reeds in the marsh
(Job 40:21 & 22) and in the shadows of the lotuses (a flower
like a lily... the pads frogs sit on). It seems to be quite
short in stature is you ask me, to lie in the shadow of those.
And it's a marsh
Jasen, not the deep blue sea or the never ending ocean. Have
you ever seen a marsh? I assure you that the 70 ton Sauroposeidon
did not hide under the lilies there. I can also tell you why
CalvaryChapel.com didn't address these particular issues,
because that part doesn't fit very well. It's a crock Jasen,
in every sense of the word.
Or maybe it's the
fire breathing dragon? Maybe perhaps these dragons lived in
herds amongst Job? Or Jasen, maybe these are more passages
that aren't to be taken literally, just like the other ones
in the Bible that don't make sense literally.
Okay, now what
I'd like you to do is compare all of this with my reasoning.
Please ask yourself this: Do you think that over the generations
an animal species changes form? For instance, the slower,
weaker gazelles are caught and eaten while the quicker and
stronger are left to reproduce. Or the fish that actually
finds a way to crawl upon the land when the pond dries up,
then passes this skill onto its spawn. Or two male bears fighting
over a female bear, the winner of which gets to mate thus
raising the chances of having better baby bears. Do you Jasen
believe that these things occur?
Now do you believe
that over the course of a million years this natural occurrence
in life changes/improves a species? This is what I believe.
It explains everything; how we got where we are today, how
life operates and why things are the way they appear to be.
Somebody may have
found a way to translate some random, ambiguous passage from
your Bible to explain how dinosaurs fit into a 10,000 year
timeline with us, but my beliefs make more sense. Speakin'
of "makin' sense", tell me about the dragons!
Bob
PS. I would love copies of the pictures you took of us while
you were here. Could you email me them?
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| “
I'm sry that the verses couldn't do nethin for u” |
Dear Bob,
I'm sry that the
verses couldn't do nethin for u, but to say that no respectable
historian, scientist, or archeologist would consider this
is ludacris. Back in the late 1800s the curator of
archeology from the oakland california musesum of natural
history was searching thru some old indian dwellings in a
canyon in Arizona. On the walls of the canyon he discovered
paintings done by the indians ancestors. These pictures were
of an elephant, an ibex, a dinosaur, and other animals. Here
are some quotes that Dr. Hubbard said about the dinosaur drawings.
"Taken all in all, the proportions are good.", "depicted
in the attitude in which man would be most likely to see it‹reared
on its hind legs, balancing with the long tail, either feeding
or in fighting position, possibly defending itself against
a party of men² (Verrill, 1954, pp. 155ff.), and ³The fact
that some prehistoric man made a pictograph of a dinosaur
on the walls of this canyon upsets completely all of our theories
regarding the antiquity of man.... The fact that the animal
is upright and balanced on its tail would seem to indicate
that the prehistoric artist must have seen it alive"
(1925, pp. 5,7, emp. in orig.).
Left:
Edmontosaurus (courtesy of Paul S. Taylor, Eden Communications).
Right: Petroglyph discovered by Dr. Samuel Hubbard in Havai
Supai Canyon (courtesy of www.bible.ca).
In a nearby area that he found the drawings, dr. Hubbard and
some other archeologist found dinasour tracts that were identified
to b from the Triassic period (more than 165 million years
ago) according to evolutionist. Now let me ask u a question
bob how could an Indain draw a perfect picture of a dinosaur
that they had never seen b4??? According to evolutionist,
no advanced mamal lived during the time of dinosaurs, but
then how could the Indians have drawn a perfect picture. A
late evolutionary paleontologist named George Simpson said
that the only mamals that had evolved back then were ³small,
mostly about mouse-sized, and rare² (Simpson, et al., 1957,
p. 797).
Javier Cabrerea Darquea was given a birthday present, when
he was young, that was a burial stone that was used by the
early Incan Indians. When he got older, Dr. Darquea went to
find more of these stones and eventually had over 11000 burial
stones. Almost one third of these stones had pictures of dinosaurs
on them. Another question for u bob once again how could
Incan indians (who lived around A.D. 500-1500) draw pictures
of animals that they had never seen or heard off???
In 1990 some dinosaur bones were sent in to get Carbon dating
at the University of Arizonas department of geosciences. Theses
bones were from an allosaurus, and an acrocanthosaurus. When
the results for the carbon dating were done, they said that
the bones for the allosaurus were only 16120 years old. The
bones for the acrocanthosaurus were only 23760 years old.
That sure isnt newhere near the dates that evolutionist said
that dino¹s lived.
In the first two chapters of Genesis and in Exodus 20:11 and
31:17, the Bible tells us that everything was made durin creation
week. The first two chapters of Genesis also tell us that
all land animals, including man and dinosaurs, were created
on the 6th day.
If u read farther
down in the chapter to verse 23 to b exact it tells u
that he is in the Jordan river, which reaches depths of up
too 1,312 feet (400 m). Another question bob can a 98 foot
tall dino hide in 1312 feet of water, I think so.
Just because a
sick or young gazelle is eaten by a lion doesn't mean that
the species of gazelles is getting stronger or better. And
how does a fish crawl on land, ive been fishing a lot, and
ive never seen a fish start crawling when I pulled him out
of the water.
I only have a couple
more questions for u bob what animals eat apes? And if they
eat the weak apes, how does that make the strong apes turn
into humans? And y r there still apes if they involed into
humans???
Here are the verses
that talk about the dragons
Job
41 1-24
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down
his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with
a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you
with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as
your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash
for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among
the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing
spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle
and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him
is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able
to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything
under heaven belongs to me.
12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and
his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him
with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with
his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together
and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are
like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot
out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over
a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his
mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm
and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone.
41:1-24
Leviathan Another beast, this one called "Leviathan." The
Hebrew word "Liv-yaw-THAWN" comes from a root meaning "to
coil and twist."
A
Crocodile?
Many commentators claim that Leviathan is an alligator or
crocodile. Again, I have two major problems with the conventional
interpretation - one philosophical, and one physical.
First of all, read verse ten:
Job 41:10 ³No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him;
Who then is he that can stand before Me? God's main point
here is that the Leviathan is unconquerable by man. Crocodile
hunters and alligator wrestlers have, throughout the centuries,
conquered these beasts. If Job could wrestle an alligator
or kill a crocodile, then he would nullify the Lord's argument
and enable himself to stand before God.
But even from the physical description, we can see that this
isn't an alligator or crocodile. A beast that no one will
challenge, skin covered with double-armored scales that cannot
be pierced by swords, spears, arrows, or javelins. His teeth
are terrifying, his belly is covered with sharp edges. When
he swims, the water is churned up to white frothing, and when
he stands up, he looks down on everything. And most controversial
of all, verses 18-21 clearly describe a creature who breathes
fire.
Fire-Breathing?
How can I believe in an actual living creature breathing fire
from it's mouth? Well, I believe in a lot of strange things!
I also believe in fireflies with bioluminescence, the ability
to transform chemical energy into light. I believe in eels
that shock their prey to death using organs in their tails
which can generate up to 650 volts - five times the voltage
that comes out of a wall socket.
I believe in beetles whose bodies squirt a chemical from one
chamber into another, causing an explosive reaction that shoots
boiling-hot noxious gases into the face of their enemies.
Is it so strange to believe that, with animals like this in
existence today, an extinct species of dinosaurs could breathe
fire? Scientists have questioned why several dinosaur species
have certain hollow areas in their skulls. These may have
been reaction chambers for combustive chemical reactions.
Unfortunately, since the chemicals that would fuel such a
reaction - as well as any glands that would produce them -
can't be preserved through fossilization, we can only use
the ducts and chambers in the skulls to theorize how this
may have happened.
Dragons
Now, have you ever stopped to wonder about why so many civilizations
from all over the world have legends of fire-breathing dragons?
And it's always dragons, never fire-breathing bears or wolves.
Why is that?
I believe these are remnants of man's history with these beasts.
"Wait a minute, Ron. Are you talking about dragons or dinosaurs?"
Both. You see, I believe that they are one and the same. You
see, the Bible never mentions dinosaurs, because the word
didn't even exist until 1841, when Sir Richard Owen created
it by combining the latin words for "terrible" and "lizard."
Although the word dinosaur is not in the Bible, the word "tan-NEEN,"
which means "dragon," is used frequently. And Leviathan is
called "the dragon who lives in the sea" in Isaiah 27:1.
I believe that man's legends of dragons come from his history
with dinosaurs.
What
Do You Believe?
"Now wait a second!" some protest. "Everybody knows that dinosaurs
became extinct 65 million years ago, a full 60 million years
before man's ancestors appeared." Yes, that's what we've been
told, but its far from the truth.
When
Were They Created?
You see, the Bible says that God created all of the animals
on the earth on the fifth and sixth days: Gen. 1:20-25 Then
God said, ³Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures,
and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the
heavens.² God created the great sea monsters and every living
creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their
kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that
it was good. God blessed them, saying, ³Be fruitful and multiply,
and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on
the earth.² There was evening and there was morning, a fifth
day. Then God said, ³Let the earth bring forth living creatures
after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of
the earth after their kind²; and it was so. God made the beasts
of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their
kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind;
and God saw that it was good. Verse 21 mentions that God created
"the great sea monsters" on the fifth day. Many people believe
these to be whales, as the KJV translates, or the "great creatures
of the sea" as the NIV renders it. But the Hebrew is "gaw-DOLE
tan-NEEN," literally meaning, "huge dragons."
God created man on the sixth day, a day after the sea and
sky dinosaurs, and the same day as the land dinosaurs. Contrary
to what the evolutionists teach, they coexisted, alive at
the same time in history. At least two of them were still
around in Job's day, because God was able to use them as examples
to him.
Sin
But some Christians don't want to go there. "That flies in
the face of science! It's a proven fact that the dinosaurs
died out long before man got here!"
I'm going to make a statement that will challenge you greatly:
You can't believe that and think that you're a Christian.
Why not? Because the Bible says, Rom. 5:12 ...through one
man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and
so death spread to all men Rom. 5:17-18 For if by the transgression
of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those
who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then
as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to
all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted
justification of life to all men. In other words, the Bible
teaches that death came because of Adam's sin, and Jesus paid
for sin with His death. 1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die,
so also in Christ all will be made alive. But if you believe
that the dinosaurs died before man sinned, then the entire
foundation of sin, the cross, and all of Christianity is destroyed.
If you believe in the pre-man death of dinosaurs, then you
don't believe you're under the curse of original sin, and
therefore have absolutely no need for a Savior.
Summation
The Scriptural, archaeological, and historical facts prove
that man and dinosaurs co-existed. But the most important
point of Job is not that dinosaurs were still alive in his
day. It is that God created them. These beasts that could
stand in the middle of raging rivers, breathe fire from their
mouths, and be so much more powerful than any human being,
were created by God. Job couldn't contend with these creatures,
so he certainly couldn't contend with their Creator. But that
same all-powerful God who can't be fought against can be fellowshipped
with, through the forgiveness offered to us in Jesus Christ,
Who died to pay the price of our sins
from the same website
as the other one
I have to go to
football now
Talk to u later
Jasen
P.S. I don¹t have
the pictures courtney does, but she is out of town till
Friday, so when she gets back ill try to get them from her
and send them to u.
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Okay, now Jasen,
don't take this personally but in all honesty there is no
weight to anything you say. Beyond the fact that you're only
15 and you don't know how to spell "tracks", you seem to simply
believe everything you read whether or not it makes sense.
You and I both know that there's a web site to find whatever
argument you're looking for. You yourself said that we can't
trust science or archeology so why is there any more validity
to all of these references you've made? It seems that now
you're just copy/pasting every argument and you're no longer
thinking for yourself. It doesn't say much for your beliefs.
Please put down
the football and try to use your brain for a moment. I realize
that fish aren't crawling around on the floor of your rowboat,
but there are fish
that walk up onto land and they're able to survive for up
to 3 days. It's not a far out concept and this is a prime
example of how struggling to survive enhances a species.
Asking me "what
eats apes?" shows me now just how silly you're being and how
bad you are at debating. Did you know that female apes favor
the strongest male for mating? You don't have to be the star
quarterback to understand that this helps make for stronger
baby apes. It isn't the process of being eaten that strengthens
a species' family tree, it's the reproducing of the better.
The reason that
there are still apes is because families of apes separated
and started new packs. It's been theorized that the ones who
ventured from the trees gradually began to walk upright because
they had to see over the tall grass of the plains (the apes
that stayed in the trees maintained their posture and upper
body strength for climbing), and because they ventured from
the forests they evolved at a greater rate (encountering new
obstacles, coping with different environments and eventually
sharing ideas with other tribes that also ventured).
Jasen, I know that
I will not convince you. I'm not attempting to, really. The
reason that I'm explaining myself so thoroughly (in my own
words) is so that when I post these emails people can see
who's thinking and who's reciting. They will witness one person
argue dinousaurs/dragons existing along side Mr. Job, while
another explains why an ape's struggle to survive matters
in the long run. I want people to think and see how simple
and obvious it all really is. One fish dies and one fish survives
and this effects the evolution of the species in a positive
way.
I also post the
letters so people can see that most of the opposition has
a 15 year old mentality; always quoting other people (starting
sentences with "The Bible says..." or "Dr. Samual Hubbard
says..."), both condemning and relying upon archeology and
science. And it doesn't help that you abbreviate using numbers
and letters in combination to form "long" words (6 letters
or more): b4?!?!
What I'm saying is that it's obvious to me and the reader
that you are not yet thinking.
Jasen, you've still
got a lot of time ahead of you to figure it all out. Do our
species a favor and dare to venture from the pack. Use your
own words and put the upper body strength on the back burner
for a spell. You'll discover there's a lot to gain by simply
thinking more.
Bob
P.S. I can't wait for those pictures! Thanks!
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